Lore talk:Accession War

Who "Won?" the War?

The Accession War/Argonian Invasion is a messy topic. At the end of the day, we have precious little information about it, and have to draw many of our own conclusions from the fragments that are available. For example, to date we don't know the real purpose of the Invasion. We don't know if it was an attempt at expansion for Black Marsh, just plain old carnage intended as revenge for Dunmeri transgressions against Argonians, or something else entirely. Without knowing what the ultimate Argonian goal was, it's hard to declare whether they 'won' or not. If what they wanted was to conquer Morrowind, it's mostly a failure. They acquired less than half of the province before being permanently halted. If what they wanted was to destroy their former slavers in House Telvanni and House Dres, they failed again. Both Houses survived and continue to rule on the Grand Council all the way up to present-day. If what they wanted was to exterminate the Dunmer, or remove them as an independent people, they massively failed. It certainly wasn't about ending slavery, that had already been totally abolished in 3E 433 by Helseth's decree. Now, if the Argonian's goal was simply to cause carnage and death and hurt the Dunmer in any way, regardless of what it was, -then- they succeeded. By contrast, the Dunmeri goal under these circumstances would simply have been to survive, to defeat the enemy and continue to exist. They succeeded, but at great cost, and still lost some territory. With this in mind, one could argue a thousand different ways how this was an Argonian victory or a Dunmer victory, but the truth is, neither side emerged satisfied. Neither side 100% achieved their ideal outcome. Morrowind's territorial integrity wasn't completely maintained, but the An-Xileel were defeated in the field and whatever their ultimate goal might have been was left unrealized as they were forcefully halted from going any further. Therefore, I believe that calling it a Stalemate, or Inconclusive, is the best route to go. Especially since lingering skirmishes continue for centuries afterwards due to the wishy-washy unresolved nature of the war's end. - Feran Derethi (talk) 15:30, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

The Infernal City speaks directly on the subject and claims the war was about getting revenge on Dunmer for their crimes against Argonians, which the Argonian discussing it claims was a complete success.

"It was the Hist who had seen through the shadows to the Oblivion crisis, who called all of the people back to the marsh, defeated the forces of Mehrunes Dagon, drove the Empire into the sea, and laid waste to their ancient enemies in Morrowind."

"A volcano erupted and destroyed most of their cities. Then my people came in and killed or drove out more."

"Why, to claim their souls?"

"No, because-it's a long story. The Dunmer have preyed on my people for centuries. We paid them back for that. The few that remained are scattered."

The Dunmer perspective character claims the same:

"Sul trudged to the other side of the island, trying not to let his rage blot out his ability to think. It wasn't enough that the ministry fell; the impact caused the volcano that was the heart and namesake of Vvardenfell to explode. Ash,lava, and tidal waves had done their work, and when that was calmed, the Argonians had come, eager to repay what survived of his people for millennia of abuse and enslavement."

So since the direct references to a motivation we get are in agreement that it was as reprisals for crimes against Argonians, and everyone is agreed that the Argonians succeeded in that regard, the war was a victory for the Argonians. --AKB ^{Talk Cont Mail} 18:18, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

That is true, however later sources succeeding the Infernal City make things a bit murkier again. In Dragonborn, Adril Arano specifically says that "Nobody seems certain why it happened... an attempt at expansion, revenge for the enslavement of their people or perhaps both." By this point the Invasion had been over for over a century, and folks are still wondering why it even happened in the first place. Then you have the crackpot theorist Lathenil of Sunhold in Rising Threat claiming it was the Thalmor who incited it for reasons unknown, making things even foggier. Mere-Glim also appears to be somewhat misinformed and radicalized, as he later claimed that the An-Xileel completely "drove the Dunmer out of Morrowind" in page 31, which we know is flat out false and that the invaders were halted and a Dunmer-ruled Independent Morrowind survived, albeit with some lost territories. I still think it's debateable enough that the result should remain either Stalemate, Inconclusive, or just remove the declaration of who did and didn't win altogether. - Feran Derethi (talk) 18:58, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

I would have to side with Feran here. "Revenge for the crimes committed against them by the Dunmer" is way too broad of a goal to be able to say if it was satisfied to the point of "victory" for the Argonians. Wars that are easy to name a victor for are ones like Tiber Septim's Empire over the Altmer of Summerset where the victorious side has a clear stated goal that they undisputedly accomplish with no satisfactory outcome for the opposing side. This war is far from that and while it’s true the Argonians did do them a great bit of damage, it’s also true that the Argonians didn’t exactly do anything concrete or lasting that we can point to and say "This definitely resulted in a victory for their side." Dcking20 (talk) 19:24, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

I think contemporary sources are much stronger and relevant than sources 200 years after the fact, especially ones that are conspiratorial in nature. I would support it being changed to something like "Inconclusive" or "Uncertain", however, as that wording is much more clearly ambiguous than the current usage of "Stalemate". --AKB ^{Talk Cont Mail} 22:11, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

For what it's worth, Mere-Glim/The Infernal City isn't really a contemporary source either, as the book takes place almost 50 years later and Mere-Glim wasn't born yet when the conflict was ongoing. Besides his knowledge being demonstrably incorrect in other instances like the one I mentioned. But I'm satisfied with leaving it at 'Inconclusive', my original argument is that there are too many unknowns about what the War was about, how it ended, and who was most satisfied with the results to confidently declare anyone the clear cut winner. The semantics of which word is used to describe that ambiguity doesn't bother me terribly. - Feran Derethi (talk) 23:40, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

I reckon that regardless of what the Argonians war aims were and the limited information we have the initial invasion was an overwhelming success for their side and therefore it should be counted as a victory for the An-Xileel. They sacked the enemy, capital, occupied the entire south for centuries to come and nearly wiped out resistance completely - if that's not a victory, I don't know what is. I don't think the Dunmer won enough for it to be considered a stalemate, not 100% dying is not enough. I the initial invasion should be considered an An-Xileel victory, maybe with an ongoing/inconclusive caveat aside (maybe a note?). - Vonstraya (talk) 1:43, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Wasn't really an overwhelming success though. Nor did they 'nearly wipe out the resistance completely.' It's well-established that their forces were resoundingly defeated and stopped from advancing any further than their initial gains in the south. Morrowind is much more than that. If someone invaded the US and occupied the deep south, before being defeated on the battlefield and failing to advance any further, we wouldn't be so quick to call them the winning side. We likewise don't know that they 'occupied the entire south for centuries to come.' Umbriel destroyed the An-Xileel less than 50 years after the Invasion started, and would have killed all life in southern Morrowind when it passed over the region. The Argonians that were there, if any, would've been slaughtered and reanimated as part of Umbriel's undead horde. Furthermore, it's made apparent that land has been reclaimed since the invasion, with Mournhold as a prime example of an area the Argonians initially reached, but have since lost. Dreyla Alor speaks of living in a Dunmer village a league from the Black Marsh border, and that only a 'few scale-skin clans still live within -our- borders', which implies the Dunmer have regained control of the area and only some isolated pockets of Argonians remain. In other words, we don't know how much land in Morrowind - IF ANY - the Argonians still control. With the potential of them retaining nothing at all a very real possibility, claiming that they saw great success for centuries to come is just not confirmable reality. So, once again, considering it an An-Xileel victory is disingenuous, biased, and unconfirmable. Leaving it vague is what's best. Because vagueness is exactly what we've been given by the writers of the lore we're cataloguing. - Feran Derethi (talk) 02:20, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

That raises an important question; is this article covering the entirety of the 4th Era conflict between the Argonians and Dunmer, or is it covering just the initial invasion from 4E 5 to c. 4E 28? Since the Umbriel Crisis and later Dunmer reconquests are relegated to the "Aftermath" section I think it's clear the article is focused on the initial invasion. The Argonian Invasion supposedly ended "long ago" and this is an article focused on the invasion, and when it comes to the invasion and the invasion alone; it's very clear the Argonians won since they walked away with more than what they started with; they sacked the enemies capital city, threatened the existence of the state and occupied parts of the country for long after the invasions conclusion. Like I said before; if that's not a victory, I don't know what is. Ergo it should be marked an An-Xileel victory, marking it as a stalemate or inconclusive just makes it more confusing. - Vonstraya (talk) 08:29, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

I’m sensing an urgency to state the Argonians dunked on the Dunmer for feel good reasons…The Empire in its battle against Morrowind during the Tiber War did the exact same thing you described above, sacked the enemies capital city and beyond that captured the entire Morrowind province as a nation of the Empire, 100 times more of an accomplishment/acquisition than what the Argonians managed here, and yet even in this case it would be extremely misleading to put "empire victory" when that’s far from the final outcome given the one of a kind concessions Morrowind was given in the Armistice that other provinces weren’t. So no, just because the Argonians sacked a city and killed several Dunmer doesn’t paint a picture of undisputed victory. The Dunmer faced no long term religious, cultural, or autonomy faced setbacks so to think that Argonians considered this "victory" when they’ve been enslaved, tortured, and abused by the Dunmer and their ancestors since the Merethic Era…yeah I don’t buy it. I’m not even sure if stating anything on the result is necessary in terms of who "won" could just leave that out entirely. Dcking20 (talk) 13:57, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Please keep your attitude professional and civil, Dcking.

Anyway, in the case you gave of Tiber's invasion of Morrowind I think it is entirely appropriate to call it an Imperial victory even if its complicated since that's what the rest of the article is for; to give more details and nuance. As a point of comparison; I think it's mostly uncontroversial to state that the Thalmor won the Great War despite failing to achieve all of their war aims and being defeated at the Red Ring - because they gained more from the war than they started with.

Regardless, I am going to remove the 'Inconclusive' mark from the infobox because it's misleading (the war did have a conclusion ergo it's not inconclusive) until we can settle this. - Vonstraya (talk) 14:33, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

I am in complete agreement with Dcking here. Too often there's an eagerness to declare the Argonian Invasion a big uncontested win for the Argonians out of some sense of perceived need for narrative justice, while ignoring the fine print about how formidable the resistance they faced was, how limited their successes really were, and how little long-term impact they achieved. An excellent in-universe comparison for the situation might be the Thalmor-Hammerfell Conflict that raged after the conclusion of the Great War. Both sides made gains and suffered losses, both sides fought each other to a standstill, and in the end the Thalmor were forced to withdraw, but not before leaving southern Hammerfell an absolutely ruined hellscape of war-torn rubble. Who won here? Officially, the Redguards did. They stopped the invaders and maintained their independence. Unofficially, no one did, because the death toll and destruction suffered by both sides was catastrophic. The situation here is very similar. The Dunmer, as the defenders, achieved their ultimate goal of stopping the invaders and retaining their sovereignty, but not without great cost. The Argonian attackers failed any final objective they might've had, unless their only goal was to cause as much death and destruction as possible for nothing but vengeance's sake. Which brings us back to the original issue. Both sides suffered extensively, and neither side fully realized their goals - leaving behind a nebulous and highly disputable status quo. Hence, using words like stalemate, inconclusive, uncertain, or indecisive. That being said, removing the word altogether and just leaving it as a list of results works just as well. It leaves only the facts, with the reader left to draw their own conclusion based on what is known. It isn't our place to decide who won what when it's highly subjective. Only to catalogue known information. I vote for leaving it as it currently is, with no victor or lack thereof even listed. Many Wikipedia articles do the same for real life wars, listing only what changed in the results summary and not listing who 'won' at all. - Feran Derethi (talk) 16:23, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Was the resistance formidable? I think there is some ambiguity here that's being glossed over. In LoS there's this line:

"They [the An-Xileel] stopped their advance advance decades ago, and haven’t shown the slightest interest in doing anything since then.”

Which to me reads not that they were unable to push onwards, but that they were uninterested. It's ambiguous at least.

In addition, we don't know for sure what the Argonians war aims were so we can't firmly state that they failed to achieve them (I personally think they did achieve their aims but that's a whole other thing). And I'd argue that their successes were quite extensive (they occupied at least half the province and threatened the existence of at least House Telvanni and likely other Great Houses) even if they were undone in the years (centuries) following the end of the invasion (which is outside the scope of the article which is focused on the invasion).

I still firmly believe that the infobox should state an An-Xileel victory. Poetics about the cost of war aside, I think the infobox should convey basic information at a glance and while the outcome and aftermath is complicated and vague, in short the Argonians did win. If it read 'stalemate' or 'inconclusive' that would only confuse the reader.

I don't want to make any accusations against anyone here, but I can't help but feel like the general community resistance to declare the Argonians the winners has something to do with the Dunmer being fan favorites. - Vonstraya (talk) 05:18, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

And in Dragonborn there's -this- line "When the Argonians invaded years later, House Redoran's army was able to prevent them from sweeping across all of Morrowind. It would be fair to say that House Redoran literally saved the Dunmer people from destruction." by Adril Arano which unambiguously states that it was the House Redoran army that prevented the Argonians from sweeping across the rest of Morrowind. It's also a more recent and up to date source than The Infernal City. It's obvious Argonians up to the present day are still trying to raid Dunmer/Redoran controlled regions, as evidenced by Dreyla Alor's dialogue talking about her village being attacked by Argonians, and the attack on Raven Rock by Argonians that was promptly thwarted in 4E 150 as documented in this history book. Threatening the existence of one House out of five is far from threatening the existence of the whole race, and saying they 'likely' threatened the existence of the rest is pure personal conjecture that isn't backed up anywhere by established lore. And regardless, as I said, it's not our place as wiki editors to decide who did and didn't win. Obviously you and I severely disagree in our personal interpretations of what happened. That's a perfect example of why it should be left undeclared. Because there's no confirmed victor, and personal opinion is not valid in a page that's meant to be a simple cataloguing of known information. - Feran Derethi (talk) 20:15, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

Okay I agree with your last point, I still think it's plainly obvious the Argonians won, but the fact there is pushback at all means it ought to be left absent/neutral.

Though I will point out that it's exactly the quote here by Adril which is why I'd argue that the assertion that the Argonians threatened all of Morrowind is not personal conjecture but is based on in-universe text; "House Redoran literally saved the Dunmer people from destruction." I think that that is unambiguous if we take Adril as a reliable source. In addition, the quote I previously cited from LoS comes immediately following another which states the Redoran halted the Argonians, so the two pieces of information are intended to be contradictory and this isn't a case of old lore being superseded by newer stuff. I say all this to point out that my position is not just personal opinion. - Vonstraya (talk) 10:23, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

That is fair enough and I'm happy with leaving it as is. Thank you for being willing to discuss this and find a compromise. I appreciate it. - Feran Derethi (talk) 15:15, 17 January 2024 (UTC)