Lore talk:Alessian Empire

Discussion from Lore talk:First Empire

Perhaps we should distinguish this from the First Empire of the Nords. — Unsigned comment by Temple-Zero (talk • contribs) on 23 December 2008

Request to Rename it to First Imperial Empire.--VergilSparda 21:10, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

The latest edits to this page have been good, but the above (brief) conversation needs to be considered. The First Empire in this PGE chapter is clearly the Nords. rpeh •T•C•E• 06:56, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

What about turning this into a disembag for 'First Empire (Allesian)' and 'First Empire (Nordic)'? Legoless 07:54, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

The thing is... can anyone find anything that actually calls Alessia's realm an empire? As far as I can tell, the First Empire was the Nordic realm, but there was never a hegemony that encompassed all Tamriel during Alessia's time. See, for instance, The Last King of the Ayleids, where Alessia's forces were defeated at Glenumbria Moors in High Rock. rpeh •T•C•E• 09:09, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

Well, I can't find much citation but the leaders are referred to as emperors in most places. Cleansing of the Fane calls Belhazra a king. According to Lore:Elder Council, the Council appointed him as the second Emperor of Cyrodiil. Shezarr and the Divines calls Alessia an empress. I can't find any direct in-game info on Herta, but her little biography names her as Empress as well. So I think it's safe to presume that there was definitely an empire of sorts ruling over at least Cyrodiil and parts of High Rock in the First Era. However, that doesn't solve the problem of naming. If it is never actually referred to as the First Empire, then that title should definitely go to the Nords. I doubt the people at the time would call it the "first" (real world example being The Great War > WWI). Maybe 'Alessian Empire' would be better. Legoless 09:56, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

Actually, looking over it some more, perhaps all of these leaders were part of the Alessian Order. That would make more sense than to have an Empire, as it's clear they were still dealing with Ayleid and Direnni upsurgence. Looking at the timeline, it seems like the War of Righteousness might have ended this reign, as directly after it is Reman Cyrodiil. This needs further investigation. Legoless 10:01, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

(e/c)The Elder Council page seems to be wrong - the only reference to Belharza is in Cleansing of the Fane which, as you've already pointed out, calls him a king and not an emperor, which would make the state a Kingdom, not an Empire. It's quite possible Alessia got a special title, having freed her race from slavery.

I remember trying to sort this mess out once before and being thoroughly annoyed by the lack of references. rpeh •T•C•E• 10:05, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

Hmm. Perhaps there's some confusion of Belharza and Morihaus, a demi-god who took the form of a divine bull. If that truly is the only mention of him, then this whole page plays off Saint Alessia (and maybe Herta if we can figure out where the heck she comes from). Just goes to show what can happen if you ignore your references! Legoless 10:12, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

Yes indeed. Herta and Hestra were both called "empress", but might both be the same person. Just goes to show how little we really know. When there isn't enough evidence to state for sure whether or not there was an entire empire, or whether two rulers were the same person, that's what I call HUGE holes in the Lore! I really, really hope that Skyrim fills in some of the blanks for those of us who enjoy finding our more of the history. rpeh •T•C•E• 10:18, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

Hestra? Another one? I'd tend to agree on her and Herta being the same person, as the (Hestra) runestones were rumoured to have been for navigational purposes, and Herta improved the roads. Same basic idea. Although it's interesting that there were 1-3 empresses in the First Era, it really isn't enough to warrant an article based on a loosely-used royal title. I propose that we should keep this stuff on Lore:Empire, perhaps link to the Alessian Order there, and turn this page into the Nord thing. Legoless 10:32, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

Hestra gets her own page, and there's a brief discussion of Herta=Hestra here. I'd guess it's the same person, but there's no way to be sure. rpeh •T•C•E• 10:39, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

(←) I've found new evidence of a First Era empire in the book Rislav The Righteous. It mentions the coronation of the Emperor Gorieus on the 23rd of Sun's Dawn 1E 461. It also directly uses the work 'Empire', saying that "The Beast of Anequina, Darloc Brae" gave honour to it, and "despite the Empire's intolerance of all elves" Nerevar and Dumac Dwarfking showed up to represent Resdayn. I've only read the first paragraph, but I think that's proof enough to decide on what to do with this article. It also calls Rislav and his father Mhorus 'kings'. This fits well with the Belharza guy. Legoless 12:58, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

Ah, good one. I should have remembered that book because I used it in rewriting the Anequina page (and others). rpeh •T•C•E• 13:02, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

Reading all of it, I've concluded that this article should be renamed - as I proposed above - the Alessian Empire. This is based on a single line, which says: "The Emperor was, like most Alessian Emperors, not a man of great humor". The book also refers to the Empire's forces as both Alessian and Imperial. If there's no disagreement I'll move it immediately, to free this article up for the real First Empire mentioned in King Edward and the Redguard pocket guide. Legoless 13:11, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. rpeh •T•C•E• 13:17, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

D'oh, I can't do it. 'Lore:Alessian Empire' is already a redirect page. Legoless 13:22, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

Okay, 'tis done. rpeh •T•C•E• 13:38, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

Just as I go to start fixing links, I find the two references we've been looking for. Lore:Pocket Guide to the Empire, 3rd Edition/Argonia says "Once the pirate menace was dealt with, the First Empire was generally content to leave Black Marsh to its native inhabitants." A loading screen in Oblivion says "The Elder Council has a long history, stretching back to the founding of the First Empire by Alessia." The current move is fine, but I think Lore:First Empire will have to be a disambig leading the Nordic one. Legoless 13:59, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

Yup. That sounds like the best plan. rpeh •T•C•E• 14:40, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

(←) Sorry to beat the dead horse, but perhaps Cyrodiilic Empire would best describe the Empires of Cyrodiil (as Imperial means 'of an Empire' as it is). I'd change it myself, but I have no option to edit the page. Right-Hand-Of-Sithis (talk) 01:02, 11 December 2012 (GMT)

Alessians

Sources from ESO seem to draw a distinction between the Empire that Alessia founded and the Alessian Empire/Order. It's mentioned in a few sources that Hestra convinced the Bretons to join the Empire, but they later left it because of the unpopularity of the Alessians. This implies people considered the Alessians usurpers of some sort. 68.53.63.170 07:04, 28 June 2014 (GMT)

The Alessian Order was certainly distinct from the First Empire, which is what this article describes. The Order was the cultural and political powerhouse of the Empire's later period, but it was never directly in control. —Legoless (talk) 12:57, 28 June 2014 (GMT)

Ami-El

Per UESPWiki:Lore, I'm bringing up the use of unofficial sources for this individual. I don't think there's anything controversial about citing the Gstaff post from TIL, and per current consensus the rule when it comes to Loremaster's Archive questions is to allow them to be cited as UOL. Ami-El clearly exists internally at Bethesda, and in fact almost made it into ESO since his name was datamined as a potential Campaign name. I know there was some historical confusion over this guy being mentioned on the wiki without citation but given the body of sources we have now I think it's fair to say he needs to be included here. —Legoless (talk) 23:04, 19 January 2020 (GMT)

I agree with Ami-El's addition per policy, but we I have an issue with adding an exact date as you have done. We agreed on the consensus unofficial lore from LA questions should be couched in uncertain language. To quote yourself: "All articles which cite an OOG/UOL/secondary source should bear these guidelines in mind. Usually this is done by adding an element of uncertainty". Stating the exact date Ami-El was crowned goes against that. The other date showing when he was active is perfectly fine, and tbh should be enough. --Jimeee (talk) 10:09, 20 January 2020 (GMT)

Fair point, how about a "ca. 1E 322" or "possibly 1E 322"? The date still ought to be mentioned. —Legoless (talk) 16:49, 20 January 2020 (GMT)

Herda and the Alessian Reform

I noticed a timeline discrepancy regarding the dissolution of the Alessian Reform, particularly regarding one Empress Herda. My full analysis of the situation can be read here, but the jist is that I think Herda should be placed between Shor-El and the unnamed Thrassian Plague. Her only mention comes from PGE3 Valenwood, which says

"Even with the eventual dissolution of the Alessian Reform of Marukh, battles continued to be waged along the Cyrodiil and Valenwood border lands. When the Empress Herda improved relations with the Colovian West, the attacks only intensified, though it was not until 1E 2714 – after unrelenting warfare and a devastating plague from the island of Thras – that Valenwood fell to the Cyrodilic Empire."

I believe this confirms two things. One, that Herda should be placed before the Thrassian Plague emperor since her actions are chronologically placed before the plague. And two, that the Alessian Reform is not the same thing as the Alessian Order. The quote places the "eventual dissolution" of the reform before Herda's reign and the subsequent plague. Neither of these points are contradicted by other sources, either. As stated before, Herda is only mentioned here, and the other sources which mention the "Alessian Reform(s)" all fall within the same timeline in the early First Era, not the mid-late period which the Alessian Order took hold in. The Final Lesson and A History of Daggerfall both place the Reform in the 1E 300s to 1E 400s, and Rislav The Righteous shares this time period while stating that Rislav's victory was the beginning of the end for the Reform, with High Rock and Skyrim both resisting it. Halcyon Lake's loading screen places it during the time of the Late Ayleid Period, and Once corroborates Rislav. Mindtrait0r (talk) 20:14, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

I think your statement is reasonable and I'm inclined to agree with most of it, though I have some comments to add:

1. Indeed, since the lore book mentions her reign as before the Thrassian Plague, then yes she needs to be put before the unknown Emperor that funded the All Flags Navy.

2. I looked around in the sources that you mentioned. At least to my interpretation, the Alessian Reform sounds just like another term for the Alessian Order, meaning they are the same thing.

3. By reading the Alessian Order wiki page, the only times it mentions the words "Reform" is when it talks about the "Alessian Reformation of Marukh, which led to the proliferation of the modern Tamrielic pantheon of the Eight Divines.". If we are going to be literal and consider this as the Reform, then by the dates everytime the reform is mentioned, Herda should be placed right after Gorieus and before Hestra. Everytime the Reform is mentioned, it's always in the fifth or sixth century of the First Era, shortly after Gorieus defeat at the hands of Rislav and the opposition of the Colovian West.

Count Reman IV (talk) 19 May 2024

Unknown emperor during Fervidius Tharn's tenure as Arch-Prelate of the Maruhkati Selective

The page's note claims that "Chancellor Abnur Tharn Answers Your Questions" mentions a specific emperor since it says: "Though at that period the arch-prelate wielded power almost as great as that of the emperor, Fervidius still had powerful enemies, both inside and outside the order." However, in my opinion, this doesn’t appear to be referring to any particular emperor; instead, it appears to be a general statement simply saying that the arch-prelacy had almost as much power as the emperorship. Savirien-Chorak (talk) 01:01, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

I understand where you are coming from, I do disagree though. If there was no emperor during Tharn's tenure as Arch-Prelate, then he wouldn't wield "almost emperor" levels of power, he'd have blatantly uncontested power. I don't think it stating an emperor (or emperors) reigned alongside Tharn and stating his office was just below the office of emperor are mutually exclusive in this context. Mindtrait0r (talk) 01:56, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Seconding what Mindtrait0r said. The Rim of the Sky (talk) 02:56, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

That's an acceptable explanation. Savirien-Chorak (talk) 00:49, 1 October 2024 (UTC)